Submitted by Experience Not Logic Blog

I’ve been an embroiled in an oddly compelling debate on Facebook that somehow grew out of comments to a friend’s posting a news item from the UK Times, He ventured forth to bring light to the world. Below I’ll print quotes from the discussion. Post-modernism has taught me that I’ll probably subconsciously selectively quote things that make the position I and those I agree with stronger, and things that make the opposition weaker. Oh well. I haven’t fallen for that other part of post-modernism, and I believe that the story of the powerful is the most important story as it will have the greatest effect on the rest of the world. Please feel free to join in. I apologize for the length, but I was having a lot of fun.

Sendhil Panchadsaram:

Oh please, that’s such a load of crap. Obama’s running to be president of the United States of America. Showing a little respect toward the American flag isn’t a very difficult thing to do. The fact that he’d rather put his logo up in its place, rather than side by side, is a very telling sign as to his character. This is also evident with Neil’s point, that he cares more about selling his ‘product’ than he does promoting and honoring this countries symbols(the flag, the troops).

Will:

If the flag and troops, symbols of war and conquest, are America’s symbols then we deserve the low global reputation we have.

I was under the impression that liberty and democracy were two of our symbols. I was also under the impression that the Hope evoked by the New World encouraging waves of mass immigration to the US was an American symbol. I was under the impression that the Hope for a better life that drove Americans west was an American symbol. I was under the impression that the Hope America brought to Western Europe, Russia, and China during WWII was an American symbol. I thought the Hope and Determination to rise in socioeconomic class, the American Dream, was an American symbol.

I also thought that America’s near genocide of American Indians was an American Symbol. I also thought that great prosperity earned on the backs of African slaves was an American symbol. I also thought that senseless wars to to fight communism and Islam at any cost were American symbols. I also thought that torture was an American symbol.

Obama the product embraces the sweet American symbols and takes a chunk out of the ugly.

McCain ain’t bad, but he also ain’t Obama.

Sendhil Panchadsaram:

Typical of a liberal seeing America as an oppressive war mongering regime. The American Flag and American Soldier stand for Freedom. The American Soldier has freed and protected more people than anyone else in human history. A billion people have their freedom thanks to America and its military. Fact of the matter is liberals like you are ashamed of our country, thats why you run off to europe and dump all over it.

People like you and Obama are incapable of saying one good thing about this country without having to predicate it with a list of bad things. We are not a perfect nation, but as a whole we are good. We feed and clothe the world. We keep the world safe. The rest of the world is just jealous of us,but make no mistake, they would do anything to come to this country and call themselves an American.

Spare me this we wiped out the Indians garbage and Slavery Stuff. We are also the nation that went to war with itself to free those slaves.

Obama is the product of everything wrong with liberals. He’s ashamed of this country. He looks down on the people and institutions that make this country great. He runs off to Europe and acts like he’d rather be EU president than President of the United States. He never speaks of American Exceptionalism. The thing liberals like yourself and Obama fail to ask yourself, is How is it we became the most prosperous, most powerful nation in history in such a short time? It’s because our founding fathers realized that free people are capable of great things. They enshrined this freedom in our constitution and it has allowed us to do things no other nation has.

Democrats used to be proud of this country and talked about things like Freedom and American Exceptional ism. Presidents like FDR, Harry Truman, and JFK. Now democrats like Barack Obama are ashamed of this country and fail to understand what makes it great.

Your right about one thing will, Mccain is no Obama. McCain didn’t go to prep schools as a kid, and didn’t spend his youth prancing around the Ivy Leagues. He didn’t get a cushy job right out of law school doing nothing of grand importance. He chose instead to spend a lifetime of service to this country, a tenure of service that came at great personal cost to him. So you’re right. Mccain is no Obama. Obama isn’t even fit to lick his boots.

Will:

Wow, okay, so Neil called me a retard when he made reference to Forrest Gump logic, but I’m under the impression that you actually believe your thinly veiled insults.

1st paragraph: I’m really interested in your math. 1 billion freed by the American military? The only theater of the only war in which the American military played a decisive role was in the Pacific Theater of WWII, but it was Soviet tanks rolling through China that became the symbol freedom there not America. The Soviets had Europe all wrapped up by the time we started getting involved in operations in Italy, Normandy just sped the process up. You can count the Balkans stuff in the ’90s. Until a free regime has been established in the ME, there hasn’t been any freeing.

I am certainly not proud of America, but I love her deeply, which is why I have no problem exposing her flaws. And I love being an American because we have the power to shape the country into what we want it to be.

2nd paragraph: If you think the glass is half-full, you’re gonna take a drink. If you think the glass is half-empty, you’re gonna try and figure out how to fill it up. The bad always comes with the good, and if one doesn’t recognize that and try to fix it then the country stagnates. The whole “rest of the world is just jealous of us” attitude reeks of arrogance and will alienate foreigners, something that is bad bad bad for trade.

3rd Paragraph: You can’t ignore history (Praise Ford!), it has made us what we are. Also, a not so close historical reading shows that the South seceded because it lost the balance of power to maintain slavery, the North declared war to preserve the Union, and Lincoln did not free the slaves until the war had been underway for a while as a desperate plan to bolster the ranks of the North and foment rebellion in the South.

4th Paragraph: “American exceptionalism” is part of Obama’s boilerplate speech. In every speech he says that in no other country in the world could somebody with his background be a candidate for the President of the US. Obama ran off to the EU because “conservatives” were saying that he didn’t have foreign policy chops. He deliberately avoided saying things in Germany and France that would’ve played to the crowd because he knew that this is not what an American candidate should do.

The second half of that paragraph is a gross oversimplification of the development of America, and probably not the most important factor. Countless books have tried to answer it, none is conclusive.

5th Paragraph: One of those dudes was cool. One dragged us into the Cold War. One dragged us into Vietnam. I prefer Ike.

History is complicated.

Sendhil Panchadsaram:

You lost all credibility with this : “I am certainly not proud of America”

Will:

Pride is self-satisfaction with the current state of things. If you’re ever satisfied with where you are, then you might as roll over and die. I’m excited to see America grow and thrive, and keeping ourselves open to the world is the way to ensure this. War and conquest is a good way to ensure that the other nations of the world shut their doors to us. Especially as nonpolarity increases.

Adam Burke:

The flag is not an ornament, it should not be printed on swim suits, paper plates, lapel pins, or airplanes - it should be printed on cloth, attached to a rope, and hoisted high above our heads - that is respecting the flag - giving a patriotic man like Obama a hard time for removing a flag from his airplane is an argument I would more likely attribute to a republican drone like Sean Hannity than smart, young people such as ourselves who surely have more valuable points to make than ones they have paraphrased from the sensationalist vultures at Fox News.

Will:

Neil, Surely you know the quote, “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel”? And surely you know the story behind it: patriotism is fine and to be admired, but when one coopts patriotism for personal gain, one is a scoundrel. Don’t join the scoundrels and accuse Obama of being unpatriotic for not making superficial displays of patriotism such as lapel pins (against the code anyways) and hand over the heart. If you’ve ever been to a sporting event there are tens of thousands of people who don’t take off their hat, don’t put their hands over their hearts, and cheer before the song is finished, and I hope you wouldn’t accuse all of them of being unpatriotic.

Will:

McCain, son and grandson of 4-star admirals. McCain, ranked 5th last in college class. McCain, reputation as hard-partying slacker elevated in rank by daddy and granddaddy’s reputation. McCain, married to a model. McCain, given preferential treatment by captors because of his daddy and granddaddy. McCain, numerous extra-marital affairs upon return to America because of wife’s medical problems. McCain, starts sleeping with Ms. Hensley, daughter of huge AB distributor. McCain, gets divorce to marry heiress. McCain, gets cushy job with wife’s daddy. McCain, best friend of biggest crook of the S&L crisis. McCain, net worth $40 million. McCain’s wife, net worth > $100 million.

Obama, worked hard, damn smart, got some damn good grades, went to the best schools in the US, first minority with the presidential nomination for a major party.

Which story is more American, the life of entitlement or the Horatio Alger story?

Sendhil Panchadsaram:

LOL! The fact that you try to rationalize Obama’s life as harder than Mccain’s shows the rest of us what a complete joke you are. I don’t think i’ve laughed this hard in a while. Thanks for the laugh. You’ve once again showed us you lack any credibility whatsoever.

Will:

I don’t get it… Are you trying to goad me into name calling? If so, I could say you have lost touch with what the Republican party is supposed to be. Bill Clinton’s adoption of the traditionally Republican embrace of free trade paved the way for the neoconservative faction of the Republican party to take control through bitterly divisive political schemes. Neocons view the world as a dangerous place that won’t be safe until democracies have been installed in every country forcefully or otherwise. 2000 McCain was more in touch with Reagan style Republicanism, but 2008 McCain is running like a modern Republican. I like the Republican party, and I don’t want to see it become a parody of conservative paranoid authoritarianism, which is exactly what it is becoming, and exactly what you have fallen prey to in your focus on Obama’s perceived lack of patriotism.

All you’ve shown so far is that you think the image a candidate projects about their love for the country is all that matters. From what I understand, this caused a lot of problems worldwide in the late 19th century and the first half of the 20th century.

I’ve shown that I think what matters is the image the candidate projects about what the country can become. The Founding Fathers wrote a dynamic Constitution that could be amended not because they thought the past should control the future, but so that their document of freedom could be modified to meet the challenges of tomorrow aware that changing times require new solutions. Look to the vision of the future that the candidates offer, the grass is greener philosophy is what brought people to America, and what continues to drive our risk taking behavior.

Sendhil Panchadsaram:

I’m not trying to goad you into anything. This whole time i thought to take you seriously, but i just realized how silly your arguments are.

I’m done with this, if you feel some childish need to have the last word its yours.

Gotta run, I think i just spotted a black helicopter.

Will:

Sendhil, I’m not a little boy that you can play silly tricks on such as he who displays indifference to the discussion first, wins.

Black Helicopters is currently a Republican thing. Look at Obama, Clinton, HW, Reagan, Nixon, Kennedy, Ike, and FDR. These are/were beasts of men who walked around with their cocks dragging on the floor. They deal with enemies by shrugging and saying, no problem, we don’t fear them. Now take a look at McCain, W, Carter, Johnson, and Truman. They’ve each got swagger, but their politics is we have nothing to fear except Al Qaeda, and Iran, and Mexico, and China, and Russia, and North Korea, and … Any leader should have fear, but to publicly display your fear reeks of insecurity. Something the leader of the most powerful and wealthy nation in history should not display.

The End … For Now…
Okay, so I get a little belligerent towards the end, but I really was holding my tongue. The only thing I regret is that one of the paragraphs looks like I’m being too hard on McCain. I really do respect McCain and all that he has accomplished. His life might’ve been harder, but sitting in a POW camp is not an accomplishment, it is an experience. An awful and trying experience, but it does not magically qualify someone for leadership. Rather, it’s a good human interest story on which to connect with voters and launch a political career.